Michael Demiurgos Omnipotence

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Re: Michael Demiurgos Omnipotence

Post by Jabosha on Mon Mar 27, 2017 10:42 pm

If the Beyonders are all knowing, all present combined as a race, then yes they'd be omnipotent. That's not what you said though. I've already stated, imo two or more beings can be omnipotent in unison.
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Re: Michael Demiurgos Omnipotence

Post by Beyonder on Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:15 pm

@Jabosha wrote:
@Beyonder wrote:
@Jabosha wrote:
@Beyonder wrote:
@Jabosha wrote:
@Beyonder wrote:
@Jabosha wrote:
@Beyonder wrote:
@Jabosha wrote:Cool, this is the first time we've been on together talking. lol
Also, since cosmic entities are not fleeting like humans and STICK to the plan/purpose, omnipotence can work in tandem.
You should check out the other thread lol.

To furthur things. Tandem was a bad way to say it. As a pair would have been better, not two horses. I'm also saying, it's possible the Celestials as a race could be omnipotent if they can fullfill the requirements, which they don't.  

Which thread, the firmament one?
Celestials have been killed way before tho.



the whole first firmament one.

I fail to see what your response on the celestials has to do with the point I made. I've already stated they don't fit the requirement for omnipotence.

I'm saying, it's possible for a race of beings to be omnipotent through numbers as Mike/Luc are in DC, as long as each entity sticks to their role.

Of course the celestials don't fit. They can't even foretell the results on many of their own planetary experiments throughout the Marvel omniverse or whatever anyone wants to call it. Which means, they fail the scient part of the omnipotence test spectacularly. Nevermind the point of being killed, which you brought up.

The beyonders were stated to be Omnipotent but not Omniscient as well.

First Firmament

Then the Beyonders aren't omnipotent in my opinion.
How so? They helped create the Marvelverse and watched it from the beginning they might not be fully but they are near-all knowing.

I've told you already. If you're not all knowing, all present, you can't be omnipotent. Nigh scient means there's holes or gaps in your knowledge of the creation. Which means, at some point, certain abilities will be locked to you based on limited knowledge. It's simple logic.

Your're putting human qualities or deficiency on a being that's truly omnipotent. Logically this can't work. Near all knowing is not enough, near scient isn't either. Without both, you can be tricked/lied to/stolen from/etc.....doesn't sound omnipotent, does it?

You're letting your love for the Beyonders get the better of you, imo.
What love? lol I find their character development interesting.

They were there before creation and helped experiment within creation.
They wielded "Unlimited Power"
They can exist everywhere in one point. (Evidence in their fight with the living tribunal.)
They know almost everything other then apparently "the future"

Well you cant be tricked/lied to/stolen from those are just plot devices.

Beyonder turned off his omniscience before but was still "All-Knowing" in a deep subconscious manner.

its all weird to understand even with human understanding as even tom brevoort stated it was all plot during secret wars.
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Re: Michael Demiurgos Omnipotence

Post by Jabosha on Wed Mar 29, 2017 5:03 am

@Beyonder wrote:
@Jabosha wrote:
@Beyonder wrote:
@Jabosha wrote:
@Beyonder wrote:
@Jabosha wrote:
@Beyonder wrote:
@Jabosha wrote:
@Beyonder wrote:
@Jabosha wrote:Cool, this is the first time we've been on together talking. lol
Also, since cosmic entities are not fleeting like humans and STICK to the plan/purpose, omnipotence can work in tandem.
You should check out the other thread lol.

To furthur things. Tandem was a bad way to say it. As a pair would have been better, not two horses. I'm also saying, it's possible the Celestials as a race could be omnipotent if they can fullfill the requirements, which they don't.  

Which thread, the firmament one?
Celestials have been killed way before tho.



the whole first firmament one.

I fail to see what your response on the celestials has to do with the point I made. I've already stated they don't fit the requirement for omnipotence.

I'm saying, it's possible for a race of beings to be omnipotent through numbers as Mike/Luc are in DC, as long as each entity sticks to their role.

Of course the celestials don't fit. They can't even foretell the results on many of their own planetary experiments throughout the Marvel omniverse or whatever anyone wants to call it. Which means, they fail the scient part of the omnipotence test spectacularly. Nevermind the point of being killed, which you brought up.

The beyonders were stated to be Omnipotent but not Omniscient as well.

First Firmament

Then the Beyonders aren't omnipotent in my opinion.
How so? They helped create the Marvelverse and watched it from the beginning they might not be fully but they are near-all knowing.

I've told you already. If you're not all knowing, all present, you can't be omnipotent. Nigh scient means there's holes or gaps in your knowledge of the creation. Which means, at some point, certain abilities will be locked to you based on limited knowledge. It's simple logic.

Your're putting human qualities or deficiency on a being that's truly omnipotent. Logically this can't work. Near all knowing is not enough, near scient isn't either. Without both, you can be tricked/lied to/stolen from/etc.....doesn't sound omnipotent, does it?

You're letting your love for the Beyonders get the better of you, imo.
What love? lol I find their character development interesting.

They were there before creation and helped experiment within creation.
They wielded "Unlimited Power"
They can exist everywhere in one point. (Evidence in their fight with the living tribunal.)
They know almost everything other then apparently "the future"

Well you cant be tricked/lied to/stolen from those are just plot devices.

Beyonder turned off his omniscience before but was still "All-Knowing" in a deep subconscious manner.

its all weird to understand even with human understanding as even tom brevoort stated it was all plot during secret wars.

C'mon Beyonder. Your avatar is the Beyonder. At any point, you jump in to make sure people know he or another iteration of them are "omnipotent." You brought up the beyonders in this particular discussion. When TOAA (not the celestial ) should have been the questioned being about omnipotence in the Marvelverse. Don't shrug your shoulders with question and then go, what love, lol?

Again you're not understanding. If you are not the two things, scient/present, those are not plot holes but real actual exploitable weaknesses, which questions true omnipotence. That's the point I'm making.

Being there before creation doesn't make you omnipotent, neither does experimenting with creation. Why would a being that's supposedly omniscient need to experiment with anything? They should already know the result, right? Past, present and future so to speak? Wielding "unlimited power" IS the plot device because if, you aren't privy to everything to know about the creation, yes even it's future, you can't be truly omnipotent.

To be honest for an omnipotent being, there really is no past/present/future/time. There just IS. P/p/f/t are points of reference for mortals to try and understand things around them.

I'll say it again, you must have true omniscience, omnipresence before you can have true omnipotence. Imo presence/scient goes to knowledge. Without knowledge on cosmic scales there is no power. I think you're arguing semantics, where you'll say, they can just show up and stop the plot etc.....
I'm arguing omnipotence as a full on concept. Without certain qualities there can't be omnipotence. In which is it possible to be tricked/lied to/stolen from? Certainly not mine.

It's also possible that omnipotence/science/presence are all one in the same. I don't know how else to explain it. It's the best I can do for now.
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Re: Michael Demiurgos Omnipotence

Post by Beyonder on Wed Mar 29, 2017 3:36 pm

@Jabosha wrote:C'mon Beyonder. Your avatar is the Beyonder. At any point, you jump in to make sure people know he or another iteration of them are "omnipotent." You brought up the beyonders in this particular discussion. When TOAA (not the celestial ) should have been the questioned being about omnipotence in the Marvelverse. Don't shrug your shoulders with question and then go, what love, lol?
Lol Yes beyonder is my favorite comic book hero but im not always on his side anything that came after Pre-retcon will get fodderized by alot of cosmic beings since beyonder was retcon and the-one-above-all was introduce i dont think we should question him as the omnipotent being of marvelverse.
@Jabosha wrote:
Again you're not understanding. If you are not the two things, scient/present, those are not plot holes but real actual exploitable weaknesses, which questions true omnipotence. That's the point I'm making.
These are fictional characters being limited my friend michael within the lucifer series could have just wiped his brother and all creation out if he wanted to but the writer would know thats just not right even if he wields his fathers power.

I mean Michael wields 2 omni powers which is Omnipotence and Omnipresence he just isn't all-knowing like lucifer is.
@Jabosha wrote:
Being there before creation doesn't make you omnipotent, neither does experimenting with creation. Why would a being that's supposedly omniscient need to experiment with anything? They should already know the result, right? Past, present and future so to speak? Wielding "unlimited power" IS the plot device because if, you aren't privy to everything to know about the creation, yes even it's future, you can't be truly omnipotent.
I never claimed the beyonders were omniscient lol i stated they were "near" all-knowing but wielded just like michael infinite power and omnipresence i mean look at the plot device they were killing gods and then killing cosmic beings who were above gods but seemingly loses to doctor doom and molecule man?

@Jabosha wrote:
To be honest for an omnipotent being, there really is no past/present/future/time. There just IS. P/p/f/t are points of reference for mortals to try and understand things around them.
The-One-Above-All at anytime could have stopped the beyonders and revived the living tribunal but he knows interfering wouldn't be much since like you said he knows everything.

@Jabosha wrote:
I'll say it again, you must have true omniscience, omnipresence before you can have true omnipotence. Imo presence/scient goes to knowledge. Without knowledge on cosmic scales there is no power. I think you're arguing semantics, where you'll say, they can just show up and stop the plot etc.....
to be a "True" Omnipotent yes you will need Omnipotence,Omniscience, and Omnipresence but in the fictional world like you said it's out human understanding of it all.
@Jabosha wrote:
I'm arguing omnipotence as a full on concept. Without certain qualities there can't be omnipotence. In which is it possible to be tricked/lied to/stolen from? Certainly not mine.
Well being tricked/lied/stolen from is more or less the being lacking omniscience because with unlimited power they could easily just reverse time to not be tricked/lied to/stolen from.

Omniscience is whats makes a being unable to be tricked/lied/stolen from.

@Jabosha wrote:
It's also possible that omnipotence/science/presence are all one in the same. I don't know how else to explain it. It's the best I can do for now.
Could be but in some "Psychology" some Gods just want to know the definition of being imperfect.....examples.....
Both Pre-Retcon Beyonder/The-One-Above-All wants to further understand or be human but still remain to be God.

The Presence/Mother of Existence wants to leave creation and see how their children do without their interference.

Michael/Cosmic Cube beyonder/the beyonders/molecule man/God Doom all wield some sort of "Infinite Power" but these beings lack the imagination/intelligence to give out their full potential as....

Michael could have easily ended the war in heaven with a gesture but his conscious didn't know the outcome of what to come.

Beyonder (Cosmic Cube) even with inheritable infinite power still wants to be human but by his showings he isn't all-knowing and can basically lead to his own defeat.

The Beyonders were just Gods who wanted to play "The" God and wanted to see evolution/human nature and other such concepts but not being all-knowing is their reason for doing what they did.

God Doom and Molecule Man even obtaining the powers of the beyonders were still not fully Omniscient but wielded Omnipotent power and didn't know much to do with it.

False Omnipotence,False omniscience, and False Omnipresence is like the Infinity Gauntlet when clearly it had to many flaws and limitations to it's power and wielder.

I agree 100% a FEW marvel writers shouldn't right a story on "Omnipotence" look at Jim Starlin for example in a interview the guy literally says the "Limits of Omnipotence." if their is LIMITS like LEGIT limits then said being isn't omnipotent.

But i agree such a topic is very hard to grasp and very hard to discuss because we both don't know enough about it.

I like these type of discussions because it could explain to some and others the many difference in views.
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Re: Michael Demiurgos Omnipotence

Post by Jabosha on Thu Mar 30, 2017 12:35 am

It seems we are in agreement as far as true Omnipotence, basically or in general.

Correct me if wrong here. It seems as if you're more lenient in how writers use the words they do. I notice, you put words like Omnipotence and unlimited power, into quotes. Which for you means, hey man, this is the way these guys write. What do you want from me? Is this correct?

I'm of the opinion, they should find other words to describe nigh omnipotent beings. It's bad writing and it's the reason the Marvelverse is so convoluted on the cosmic scale.
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Re: Michael Demiurgos Omnipotence

Post by Jabosha on Thu Mar 30, 2017 1:03 am

On the subject of omnipotence in marvel. They're so screwed up they have sentient beings creating infinite realities with their actions and TOAA only knows the alpha omega of each reality after it's created. Sorry but TOAA knows every reality that can will be created and the alpha-omega of each reality before it's created, if TOAA is truly Omnipresent/scient/potent.

This is despite the fact that sentient beings barely create anything, nevermind "infinite realities."
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Re: Michael Demiurgos Omnipotence

Post by Beyonder on Thu Mar 30, 2017 11:33 pm

@Jabosha wrote:It seems we are in agreement as far as true Omnipotence, basically or in general.  

Correct me if wrong here. It seems as if you're more lenient in how writers use the words they do. I notice, you put words like Omnipotence and unlimited power, into quotes. Which for you means, hey man, this is the way these guys write. What do you want from me? Is this correct?

I'm of the opinion, they should find other words to describe nigh omnipotent beings. It's bad writing and it's the reason the Marvelverse is so convoluted on the cosmic scale.
In general Yes i agree with you.

Yes because some Marvel writers use the "Greek" meaning of Omnipotence which is just "Godlike or Great Power" not the definition of "Unlimited/Infinite Power"

Marvel staff did clarify beings like Galactus/The Living tribunal DO not wield infinite power but uses the greek meaning for them vs using it with beyonder which is always the English/Proper meaning which is Infinite power.

Agreed plus marvel had one time called the beyonders children aka Cosmic Cubes "Neo-Omnipotent" and described them as the powers of the infinite in the hands of mortals.

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Re: Michael Demiurgos Omnipotence

Post by Beyonder on Thu Mar 30, 2017 11:41 pm

@Jabosha wrote:On the subject of omnipotence in marvel. They're so screwed up they have sentient beings creating infinite realities with their actions and TOAA only knows the alpha omega of each reality after it's created. Sorry but TOAA knows every reality that can will be created and the alpha-omega of each reality before it's created, if TOAA is truly Omnipresent/scient/potent.

This is despite the fact that sentient beings barely create anything, nevermind "infinite realities."
Yeah
"Pre-Retcon Beyonder" aka before his reorigin was basically The-One-Above-All before The-One-Above-All was created.

but After his Retcon it was then established by Marvel that infact "The-One-Above-All" is a real character and is basically the true Omnipotent being of Marvelverse.
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Re: Michael Demiurgos Omnipotence

Post by Jabosha on Fri Mar 31, 2017 4:03 am

Great debate my man. Great debate.
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Re: Michael Demiurgos Omnipotence

Post by Beyonder on Sat Apr 01, 2017 2:12 am

@Jabosha wrote:Great debate my man. Great debate.
We should have more of these discussions.
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Re: Michael Demiurgos Omnipotence

Post by Jabosha on Wed Apr 12, 2017 1:27 am

@Beyonder wrote:
@Jabosha wrote:Great debate my man. Great debate.
We should have more of these discussions.

Speaking of discussion, how about we try to define what a true omnipotent being has to have/be for omnipotence?
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Re: Michael Demiurgos Omnipotence

Post by Beyonder on Wed Apr 12, 2017 6:07 am

@Jabosha wrote:
@Beyonder wrote:
@Jabosha wrote:Great debate my man. Great debate.
We should have more of these discussions.

Speaking of discussion, how about we try to define what a true omnipotent being has to have/be for omnipotence?
that would be a very loooooooong discussion then.
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