Imperialdramon Paladin Mode (Composite) vs Super Perfect Cell

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Re: Imperialdramon Paladin Mode (Composite) vs Super Perfect Cell

Post by Beyonder on Thu Nov 26, 2015 12:25 pm

Ill ask other people who know about Density and gravity and get back to you on this.
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Re: Imperialdramon Paladin Mode (Composite) vs Super Perfect Cell

Post by TruthTroller on Thu Nov 26, 2015 12:31 pm

Well, if we go by the destruction of King Kai's planet alone, I don't think it should really be much energy, at least when compared to previous feats in dbz, however, if his attacks had much less energy and power than let's say Frieza's, he shouldn't be able to hurt Goku, Vegeta or Piccolo at all, and the whole plot of him been a new much more powerful villain wouldn't make any sense for the series at all.
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Re: Imperialdramon Paladin Mode (Composite) vs Super Perfect Cell

Post by Beyonder on Thu Nov 26, 2015 12:40 pm

I mean the planet destruction had caused Cell to be turned into near nothing more than his bomb did and as we seen he had to build enough energy to even cause what he did to the planet another thing is Akira never really gave us anything about energy output levels within characters.
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Re: Imperialdramon Paladin Mode (Composite) vs Super Perfect Cell

Post by TruthTroller on Thu Nov 26, 2015 12:49 pm

Akira never gave anything specific, however the series follows only 1 specific canon timeline of events.

The series develops around a plot, and the history develops in a way that the powers of the characters only go in one sense, and it is that they either get stronger, or they get stuck.

Since in the series, the power of the characters only advances in one sense (forward), even if the power boost is unquantifiable, it is still a power boost, and since their powers can only advance forward, it would be completely illogical that Cell was weaker than Frieza.
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Re: Imperialdramon Paladin Mode (Composite) vs Super Perfect Cell

Post by Beyonder on Thu Nov 26, 2015 2:00 pm

I mean DBZ is inconstant since Goku never beaten cell nor was he able to really defeat the main villains without help

Exp: Buu saga Goku needed the dragon balls+spirit bomb
but in Saiyan saga he used it on Vegeta didn't kill him even when he killed a bunch of people.
Frieza? he survived but not buu?

how about frieza fight he didn't beat him at 100% since before he was fighting the others.
Cell? he never defeated him in a 1v1 but got killed by him.
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Re: Imperialdramon Paladin Mode (Composite) vs Super Perfect Cell

Post by Paladinos on Thu Nov 26, 2015 11:55 pm

Beyonder wrote:I only watched it when its debate related a being in Digimon was literally Multiverse level or Metaverse level? But yeah they have heavy hitters.

I agree the "Universe" stuff in DBS was just hype.

Yeah, ZeedMillenniummon is anywhere from 1024 to 3 million universes.

Still shit compared to Kagutsuchi though.
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Re: Imperialdramon Paladin Mode (Composite) vs Super Perfect Cell

Post by Beyonder on Fri Nov 27, 2015 1:32 am

Which Kagutsuchi?
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Re: Imperialdramon Paladin Mode (Composite) vs Super Perfect Cell

Post by TruthTroller on Fri Nov 27, 2015 3:36 am

Beyonder wrote:I mean DBZ is inconstant since Goku never beaten cell nor was he able to really defeat the main villains without help

How is it inconsistent?

The whole series follows a very simple logic:

A villain appear, he is more powerful than anybody.
They fight him, they fail but they survive, then they recover and become stronger due to zenkai or trainning, and they reapeat until they become more powerful than the villain or they beat him with a special technique.

Then, the world is in peace, until a new villain appear, and this new villain is even more powerful, and the process repeats itself.

You say it is inconsistent that Goku never defeated a main villain by himself, but how is it incosistent, if any new villain that appears is much more powerful than Goku when they face each other.

But, actually, it would incosisntent that Goku had the power to defeat the new main Villains at their first encounter, because the whole series focus on the heroes becomming stronger and overpowering the villain who was more powerful than the heroes at first place.

Beyonder wrote:Exp: Buu saga Goku needed the dragon balls+spirit bomb
but in Saiyan saga he used it on Vegeta didn't kill him even when he killed a bunch of people.
Frieza? he survived but not buu?

How is it inconsistent?

The Spirit Bomb that Majin Buu received was much more powerful than the ones Vegeta and Frieza received.

Super Spirit Bomb

Beyonder wrote:how about frieza fight he didn't beat him at 100% since before he was fighting the others.

He beat him at 100%, Frieza didn't only became more powerful with each transformation, he also healed from all the damage each time he transformed, and by when he got his last transformation, nobody else but Goku was powerful enought seriously hurt him or give him battle.

And he beated Frieza by overpowering him with SSJ transformation.

Beyonder wrote:Cell? he never defeated him in a 1v1 but got killed by him.

Cell was more powerful than Goku, I don't see the inconsistency here.
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Re: Imperialdramon Paladin Mode (Composite) vs Super Perfect Cell

Post by Beyonder on Fri Nov 27, 2015 3:50 am

Let me point out the flaws then.....that way you can see my points....
Goku never defeated Frieza on his own which means he isnt planet level by powerscaling terms.
Goku never defeated Cell it was his spirit and gohan who defeated him and he didnt even survive cells explosion that destroyed a small planet that was smaller than pluto and the moon.

Goku needed straight help against Buu

Powerscaling=Constant

DBZ is not constant to be powerscaled why?
1. Trunks defeated Frieza but couldn't land a hit on Goku?
2. Android 18 broke Vegeta arm when his "Ki" was up how is that not inconstant? She is just a straight cyborg.
3. Gohan defeated Cell only with the help of Goku "Spirit"
4. Goku utterly admitted he couldn't defeat Buu without help.

If Goku or any other fighter was so powerful why would they need constant 24/7 teaming and super already showing inconstancies and the people who don't see the flaws cant see why DB is not constant.

Want more inconstancies?.....
Goku DIDN'T defeat Frieza during the namek saga it was himself destruco disc+planet explosion and he was still alive where Goku was running away how can you have an apparent"Planet" level attack but can't survive it? Even Goku was afraid of Buu planet attack that would be a constant 10 times planet attack meaning it would go higher and he even stated "We cant stop that Vegeta!" And he was right it hit the core of the planet just like Frieza.

If goku was on the levels some state he was why does the evidence show other wise?
Cell was causally getting beaten up by a Moon buster so how is Cell planet level?
Not even the androids were planet level....and they were stomping the Z fighters with ease.

If that isn't inconstant then I dont know what is anymore.

Only chance of Goku planet busting or other other than Beerus is hitting the core.

Even in ROF vegeta was killed by Frieza attack.


Last edited by Beyonder on Fri Nov 27, 2015 4:28 am; edited 2 times in total
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Re: Imperialdramon Paladin Mode (Composite) vs Super Perfect Cell

Post by Beyonder on Fri Nov 27, 2015 3:55 am


This will also help in my evidence.
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Re: Imperialdramon Paladin Mode (Composite) vs Super Perfect Cell

Post by Paladinos on Fri Nov 27, 2015 4:47 am

Beyonder wrote:Which Kagutsuchi?

MegaTen.
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Re: Imperialdramon Paladin Mode (Composite) vs Super Perfect Cell

Post by Beyonder on Fri Nov 27, 2015 4:50 am

Megami Tensei? Lol or is that the actual name "MegaTen"?
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Re: Imperialdramon Paladin Mode (Composite) vs Super Perfect Cell

Post by TruthTroller on Fri Nov 27, 2015 5:09 am

Beyonder wrote:Let me point out the flaws then.....
Goku never defeated Frieza on his own.
Goku never defeated Cell
Goku needed straight help against Buu

Frieza was more powerful than Goku until he got SSJ transformation.
Cell was more powerful than Goku when they fought.
Majin Buu was more powerful than Goku when they fought as well.

Beyonder wrote:
Powerscaling=Constant

DBZ is not constant to be powerscaled why?
1. Trunks defeated Frieza but couldn't land a hit on Goku?
2. Android 18 broke Vegeta arm when his "Ki" was up how is that not inconstant? She is just a straight cyborg.
3. Gohan defeated Cell only with the help of Goku "Spirit"
4. Goku utterly admitted he couldn't defeat Buu without help.

1. Both, Goku and Trunks were more powerful than Frieza when they fought each other.
2. Whether she was an android or not isn't relevant, she was still more powerful than Vegeta when they fought.
3. Goku's "spirit" couldn't help Gohan battle against Cell, just cheer him up.
4. Majin Buu was more powerful than Goku.


Beyonder wrote:
If Goku or any other fighter was so powerful why would they need constant 24/7 teaming and super already showing inconstancies and the people who don't see the flaws cant see why DB is not constant.

They need trainning to become more powerful, specially when the villains that appear are more powerful than thems at the time when they appear.


Beyonder wrote:
Want more inconstancies?.....
Goku DIDN'T defeat Frieza during the namek saga it was himself destruco disc+planet explosion and he was still alive where Goku was running away how can you have an apparent"Planet" level attack but can't survive it? Even Goku was afraid of Buu planet attack that would be a constant 10 times planet attack meaning it would go higher and he even stated "We cant stop that Vegeta!" And he was right it hit the core of the planet just like Frieza.

If goku was on the levels some state he was why does the evidence show other wise?

Goku already proved his superiority over Frieza. Frieza got mad, and tried to kill Goku with tracking destructo disk that would pursue him, but then he tricked Frieza into cutting himself, and since it was Goku who performed the strategy, and since he did showed to be superior to Frieza onece in SSJ transformation, he did defeated Frieza, or at least that is what Frieza felt. If he  felt himself defeated, why did he came to Earth looking for revenge?

And Goku had to go away, because he wouldn't survive in outer space, not because he couldn't survive the explotion.




Beyonder wrote:
Cell was causally getting beaten up by a Moon buster so how is Cell planet level?

Under which standards was the person who was beating Cell a "Moon buster".

If I remember well, Frieza was a planet buster, and anybody who could give battle to Cell became much more powerful than Frieza,
How is that inconsistent?

Beyonder wrote:
Not even the androids were planet level....and they were stomping the Z fighters with ease.

If that isn't inconstant then I dont know what is anymore.

How can you be so sure they were not even planet busters?

Besides, the androids were "designed" to beat the Z warriors.

Beyonder wrote:
Only chance of Goku planet busting or other other than Beerus is hitting the core.

Actually, in order to destroy a planet you need to overcome the "Gravitational Binding Energy", being able to do so is what makes them planet busters.

And Frieza is a casual planet buster:

Frieza easily destroy planet

Does this looks like core busting?



Destroy planet with a small ki ball



Beyonder wrote:
Even in ROF vegeta was killed by Frieza attack.

Vegeta also died because saiyans can't survive in outer space.

Frieza didn't die, because he can survive in outer space.

Frieza Survives

http://i.imgur.com/pXXQB03.gif


Last edited by TruthTroller on Fri Nov 27, 2015 8:41 am; edited 4 times in total
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Re: Imperialdramon Paladin Mode (Composite) vs Super Perfect Cell

Post by TruthTroller on Fri Nov 27, 2015 5:13 am

Beyonder wrote:
This will also help in my evidence.

Yajirobe doesn't knows how to control his ki to that degree.

In order to be able to fly and do energy attacks the characters must know how to control their ki.

Gohan trained Videl enought for her to learn how to fly, and she isn't stronger than Jajirobe.
------

Also, how do you know that Yamcha and Krillin are uncapable of destroying the moon?
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Re: Imperialdramon Paladin Mode (Composite) vs Super Perfect Cell

Post by Beyonder on Fri Nov 27, 2015 5:15 am

Ok I'm done debating about this. Salute
If you cant see the inconstancies I point out with clear evidence man then that's you but Powerscaling isnt constant especially in dbz since Goku never defeated anyone on his own and needs constant help and team work.

Yamacha/Krillin couldn't beat raditz them being labeled as Moon anything is just stupid.
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Re: Imperialdramon Paladin Mode (Composite) vs Super Perfect Cell

Post by TruthTroller on Fri Nov 27, 2015 5:17 am

Beyonder wrote:Ok I'm done debating about this. Salute
If you cant see the inconstancies I point out man then that's you bust Powerscaling isnt constant especially in dbz since Goku never defeated anyone on his own.

Ok, lol :/

I didn't said that DBZ doesn't have inconsistencies.

However, I'm saying that some of the things that seem as inconsistent to you, doesn't seem to me.

Goku never defeated anyone on his own, because every villain was more powerful than he was at the moment they fought each other.
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Re: Imperialdramon Paladin Mode (Composite) vs Super Perfect Cell

Post by TruthTroller on Fri Nov 27, 2015 5:19 am

Beyonder wrote:
Yamacha/Krillin couldn't beat raditz them being labeled as Moon anything is just stupid.

Raditz was much more powerful than Yamcha or Krillin when he came to Earth.

After he was defeated by Goku and Piccolo, all the Z warriors trainned and became stronger than Raditz.
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Re: Imperialdramon Paladin Mode (Composite) vs Super Perfect Cell

Post by Beyonder on Fri Nov 27, 2015 5:21 am

TruthTroller wrote:
Beyonder wrote:Ok I'm done debating about this. Salute
If you cant see the inconstancies I point out man then that's you bust Powerscaling isnt constant especially in dbz since Goku never defeated anyone on his own.

Ok, lol :/

I didn't said that DBZ doesn't have inconsistencies.

However, I'm saying that some of the things that seem as inconsistent to you, doesn't seem to me.

Goku never defeated anyone on his own, because every villain was more powerful than he was at the moment they fought each other.
Powerscaling is meant for 1 on 1 any team work doesn't work because it makes the feat null void in a debate like sonic beating Solaris and everyone stating he is 1/3 universe level which doesn't make sense on how they should be considered even Multi-Galaxy level.
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Re: Imperialdramon Paladin Mode (Composite) vs Super Perfect Cell

Post by Beyonder on Fri Nov 27, 2015 5:26 am

I am a straight feat person i dont do powerscaling nor calculations but image calculations i have no problems with because its basically image aka visual proof but i don't HATE dbz at all they are powerful but some claims/people exaggerates them.
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Re: Imperialdramon Paladin Mode (Composite) vs Super Perfect Cell

Post by TruthTroller on Fri Nov 27, 2015 5:38 am

Beyonder wrote:I am a straight feat person i dont do powerscaling nor calculations but image calculations i have no problems with because its basically image aka visual proof but i don't HATE dbz at all they are powerful but some claims/people exaggerates them.

Ok, I understand

But I think that this methodology nerfes some specific fictional verses.

There are some fictional verses in which powerscalling isn't reliable, because characters have flaws, and even if DBZ isn't perfectly consistent on showing, it is consistent on tiering.

DBZ is on itself a work of fiction which rellies on the notion that each new villain that appears is more powerful than the last one.

Without this notion, its entire plot wouldn't make sense.
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Re: Imperialdramon Paladin Mode (Composite) vs Super Perfect Cell

Post by TruthTroller on Fri Nov 27, 2015 5:43 am

If we go by feats only, then Saiyan saga Piccolo (who destroyed the Moon) would be stronger than anybody until Frieza appeared (who destroyed some planets).

But we know he wasn't stronger than Raditz, Nappa, Vegeta, etc...

And then, Frieza would be more powerful than the androids, and Cell, and anybody until Majin Buu appeared.

But we know that all the androids and Cell are more powerful than Frieza.

DBZ story only makes sense through powerscalling.
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Re: Imperialdramon Paladin Mode (Composite) vs Super Perfect Cell

Post by Beyonder on Fri Nov 27, 2015 5:52 am

TruthTroller wrote:If we go by feats only, then Saiyan saga Piccolo (who destroyed the Moon) would be stronger than anybody until Frieza appeared (who destroyed some planets).

But we know he wasn't stronger than Raditz, Nappa, Vegeta, etc...
I mean Silver surfer goes MFTL with his cosmic board does that instantly means he have MFTL without it? or MFTL in reaction/striking speed? surely no every series isnt perfect i can name a few to even show case my points......
Filler King Vegeta:

Filler Natsu Dragoneel:

See my point lol
filler have better feats than canon......like STTGL has Multi-Galaxy IF not Universe level feats.
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Re: Imperialdramon Paladin Mode (Composite) vs Super Perfect Cell

Post by TruthTroller on Fri Nov 27, 2015 6:15 am

Beyonder wrote:
I mean Silver surfer goes MFTL with his cosmic board does that instantly means he have MFTL without it? or MFTL in reaction/striking speed? surely no every series isnt perfect i can name a few to even show case my points......
Filler King Vegeta:

Filler Natsu Dragoneel:

See my point lol
filler have better feats than canon......like STTGL has Multi-Galaxy IF not Universe level feats.

Personally, I don't like ussing fillers, since I consider them as not canon, and they create even more inconsistencies.
------

Comics have much lesser consistency, because they never end, they have existed for decades, and they have a lot of writers, that create thousands of flaws in the power of the characters for sakes of the plot of the thousands stories that happen in multiple timelines, universes and arcs.

For example, in one version and time Hulk destroyed a meteor twice as big as Earth, and in other occasions he has gotten KOed by nukes, or beaten by Captain America; and Spiderman defeated Firelord, and Black Panther holded Silver Surfer with an armlock, etc...

Powerscalling isn't reliable for comics, it is understandable to avoid applying powerscalling to comics.
------

But DBZ only follows 1 cannon timeline of events, and its story goes around the notion that new villains are more powerful than the previous villains, and in order to defeat the new villain, the heroes must get stronger.

In DBZ you will never have somebody like Mr Satan beating somebody like Goku, you won't get somebody like Krillin beating Majin Buu, or things of that sort. And you won't get somebody like Yamcha beating Gohan.

Etc... The relation of powers between the characters is much more consistent, and stable, and it only chanes when a character gets a powerboost.

The characters even state their own powers in relation to others in multiple occasions. Like when Trunks easily defeated Frieza, and said that the Androids were like monsters, because of how powerful they were.

In dbz, characters are not used to beat characters that are much more powerful than themselves, unless they do teamwork or they get a power boost, or at least, that is something that they have always shown in the series.

Now, I'm not saying pwerscalling is perfect in DBZ, but I'm saying it is worser not to do. You think that we shouldn't powerscale DBZ, because it has some inconsistencies, but the problem is that not powerscalling DBZ would make DBZ like a thousand times more inconsistent. Not powerscalling Z characters generates more problematic inconsistencies than powerscalling does.
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Re: Imperialdramon Paladin Mode (Composite) vs Super Perfect Cell

Post by Beyonder on Fri Nov 27, 2015 7:27 am

I mean you also forget
Energy output is inconstant
Durability is inconsistent

And such like that are basically the majority for Powerscaling

I haven't seen goku bust a planet. So in my mind I wont consider him one just because he help defeat such a villian like I said DBA rules should be put
Powerscaling on or off.
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Re: Imperialdramon Paladin Mode (Composite) vs Super Perfect Cell

Post by TruthTroller on Fri Nov 27, 2015 7:53 am

Beyonder wrote:I mean you also forget
Energy output is inconstant
Durability is inconsistent

And such like that are basically the majority for Powerscaling

I haven't seen goku bust a planet. So in my mind I wont consider him one just because he help defeat such a villian like I said DBA rules should be put
Powerscaling on or off.



It would be inconsistent that Goku destroyed a planet, because he is the "good guy" or the "hero", he is suppossed to protect planets, not destroy them :/

Piccolo could destroy the Moon,
It would be inconsistent that Frieza couldn't tank Moon busters, because he would have died of Piccolos attacks.

Goku was able to hurt Frieza much more than Piccolo.
It would be inconsistent that he wouldn't be able to destroy the Moon, because, he wouldn't be able to hurt Frieza.

Frieza can destroy planets.
It would be inconsist that Goku couldn't tank planet busting attacks, because Frieza would have killed him with 1 attack.

Cell was capable of hurting Goku, and he killed Goku.
It would be inconsistent that Cell couldn't destroy planets, because he wouldn't be able to hurt, or kill Goku.

-----
You see how much inconsistencies not powerscalling would generate?
DBZ only makes sense through powerscalling. :/
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Re: Imperialdramon Paladin Mode (Composite) vs Super Perfect Cell

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