Imperialdramon Paladin Mode (Composite) vs Super Perfect Cell

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Re: Imperialdramon Paladin Mode (Composite) vs Super Perfect Cell

Post by Beyonder on Fri Nov 27, 2015 12:17 pm

I dont see it as inconstant I mean Some characters can literally beat Planet busters and not be considered planet busters them themselves that is more impressive because it shows the character has the skill to handle such beings.

If hercule beats Goku because Akira wrote it fans would claim CIS/PIS and other such things and plus Powerscaling is also just taking other feats and placing it to another.
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Re: Imperialdramon Paladin Mode (Composite) vs Super Perfect Cell

Post by TruthTroller on Sat Nov 28, 2015 6:00 am

@Beyonder wrote:I dont see it as inconstant I mean Some characters can literally beat Planet busters and not be considered planet busters them themselves that is more impressive because it shows the character has the skill to handle such beings.

If hercule beats Goku because Akira wrote it fans would claim CIS/PIS and other such things and plus Powerscaling is also just taking other feats and placing it to another.

Yeah, maybe in other fictional verses, but not in DBZ.

In other fictional verses, there are many characters that have a great variety of diferent super powers, and with them, they can fight other characters by overpowering them in their own area, which allows them to exploit their own strenghts against the weakness of other characters.

For example:
Charles Xavier, from X-men is a powerful telepath, if he defeated a planet buster, he would do it with telepathy, and telepathy can't be used to planet bust.
The difference in power that would allow Prof X to beat said character would be this one:
Xavier Telepathic powers >>>> Planet busting character's mind resistance.

But DBZ doesn't have that wide array of powers to use against each other to exploit specific weaknesses and strenghts, they can only beat other characters by overpowering them with the same specific powerset everybody have.

Another way, in which a character can beat another character is by preparing to use the exploitable weaknesses of another character.

For example:
Batman vs Superman, Batman is very skill full, cunning and resourcefull, and Superman has some very specific exploitable weaknesses, so if he beated Superman, he would do it by preparing to exploit Superman's weaknesses, like kriptonyte.

But then, DBZ characters doesn't have specific known exploitable weaknesses like Superman with Kriptonyte, and if they have them, they haven't shown to exploit them, so the only way for them to beat another character is again, to overpower it ussing the same power set that every other superpowered character have.

-----------
In DBZ there is a power progression of the characters as the story advances forward.

Every new main villain that appears is always more powerful than the last main villain.

Example:
Majin Buu >>>> Cell >>>> any android (16, 17 and 18) >>>> Frieza >>>> Ginyu >>>> Vegeta (saiyan saga) >>>> Nappa >>>> Raditz.

And every villain and Z warrior has the same basic power set, so, logically, the only way in which new villains and Z can become more powerfull is by increasing the status of this very specific power set (Speed, strenght, durability and destructive capacity).

Since, the characters only have an specific powerset, and since every new villain is more powerful than the last one, the only rational conclusion, is that the specific powers that every character posses are the ones that increase.

So far in DBZ, a lower Tier characters have never been able to beat a much higher Tier character without help.

The fact that lower Tiers (less powerfull) characters can't beat higher Tiers (more poweful) characters by themselves makes tiering consistent in DBZ.

The fact that they can only become more powerful by increasing their specific power set (speed, durability, strenght, destructive capacity), a power set everybody have, is what makes powerscalling reliable for DBZ, because they can only become more powerful by increasing the capacities of this powerset.
------

Example:

Saiyan saga tiering:  Goku >>>> Nappa >>>> Piccolo.

1. Piccolo was a moon buster since the beginning of DBZ, and since his power never decreased as the series advances, it's more his power increased, so his moonbusting capacities remains as a lower limit constant for his known destructive capacities.

Piccolo's destructive capacity > Moon

2. Despite of his moon buster capacities, and despite of the fact that he tried his best against Nappa, his attacks were highly unefective against him.
Since Piccolo's moonbusting capacities are a constant, and since he tried his best against Nappa, this creates a new constant for Nappas durability.
In other words

Nappa's durability >>>> Piccolo's destructive capacity > Moon

3. Goku's attacks were much more effective against Nappa than Piccolo's attack.

Goku's destructive capacity >>>> Nappa's durability >>>> Piccolo's destructive capacity > Moon.

------
Who was a higher tier character: Goku or Nappa?
Goku
What was higher: Goku's destructive capacity or Nappa's durability?
Goku's destructive power

Who was a higher tier character: Nappa or Piccolo?
Nappa.
What was higher: Nappa's durability or Piccolo's destructive capacity?
Nappa's durability.

Who was a higher tier character: Piccolo or Goku?
Goku
Who had a higher destructive capacity: Piccolo or Goku?
Goku.


Last edited by TruthTroller on Sat Nov 28, 2015 8:30 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Imperialdramon Paladin Mode (Composite) vs Super Perfect Cell

Post by Beyonder on Sat Nov 28, 2015 6:31 am

In some those examples its all debatable like i stated remember the "Ki" is what makes the characters and we don't have a full understanding of the energy/durability output system within dragon ball.
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Re: Imperialdramon Paladin Mode (Composite) vs Super Perfect Cell

Post by TruthTroller on Sat Nov 28, 2015 6:34 am

@Beyonder wrote:In some those examples its all debatable like i stated remember the "Ki" is what makes the characters and we don't have a full understanding of the energy/durability output system within dragon ball.

Then, feel free to debate them and give reasons of why these specific examples would be inacurate.
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Re: Imperialdramon Paladin Mode (Composite) vs Super Perfect Cell

Post by TruthTroller on Sat Nov 28, 2015 6:42 am

@Beyonder wrote:In some those examples its all debatable like i stated remember the "Ki" is what makes the characters and we don't have a full understanding of the energy/durability output system within dragon ball.

Besides, even if my examples were wrong, that wouldn't automatically discredit the reasonings which I tried to illustrate with those examples, so more than simply debating my examples, it would be better if you actually debated the whole reasonning that I tried to illustrate with thoses examples.
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Re: Imperialdramon Paladin Mode (Composite) vs Super Perfect Cell

Post by Beyonder on Sat Nov 28, 2015 6:43 am

@TruthTroller wrote:
@Beyonder wrote:In some those examples its all debatable like i stated remember the "Ki" is what makes the characters and we don't have a full understanding of the energy/durability output system within dragon ball.

Then, feel free to debate them and give reasons of why these specific examples would be inacurate.
Durability:
Goku didnt survive a special beam during his fight with raditz.
Nappa about to get killed by Krillin destruco disc
Vegeta with his KI up but still had gotten a broken arm caused by Android 18
Goku cant survive cell explosion but can survive a laser through the heart.

DC:
Piccolo ki blasts the moon with no need of his most "Powerful attack"
Frieza able to blow up Planet vegeta after hitting the core but yet on namek he merely "Disrupted" the core.
Buu barely surviving his own attack.
Vegeta during ROF couldnt tank earths destruction.
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Re: Imperialdramon Paladin Mode (Composite) vs Super Perfect Cell

Post by TruthTroller on Sat Nov 28, 2015 6:53 am

@Beyonder wrote:
Durability:
Goku didnt survive a special beam during his fight with raditz.
Nappa about to get killed by Krillin destruco disc
Vegeta with his KI up but still had gotten a broken arm caused by Android 18
DC:
Piccolo ki blasts the moon with no need of his most "Powerful attack"
Frieza able to blow up Planet vegeta after hitting the core but yet on namek he merely "Disrupted" the core.
Buu barely surviving his own attack.
Vegeta during ROF

1. Goku's durability was lower than the destructive power of the special beam, remember the technique is a multiplier special technique.

2. Again, a special technique, if you did read my comments, and if you did remember, you would noticed that I did say that they could beat other characters with very specific technique on one of my previous comments.

In the second page I said:

@TruthTroller wrote:
The whole series follows a very simple logic:

A villain appear, he is more powerful than anybody.
They fight him, they fail but they survive, then they recover and become stronger due to zenkai or trainning, and they reapeat until they become more powerful than the villain or they beat him with a special technique.

3. Again, Android 18 was more powerful than Vegeta.
I don't know why do you keep saying it is incosistent, when it was quite clear that Android 18 was more powerful than Vegeta.

I already said:
@TruthTroller wrote:So far in DBZ, a lower Tier characters have never been able to beat a much higher Tier character without help.

@TruthTroller wrote:The fact that lower Tiers (less powerfull) characters can't beat higher Tiers (more poweful) characters by themselves makes tiering consistent in DBZ.

Beginning of androids saga Tiering:
Android 18 >>> Vegeta

The fact that she beated Vegeta is consistent with the difference of powers between Vegeta and her at that moment, and it only reinforces my arguments.

4. What's about it? It just means that his most powerful technique has higher power and intensity than a moon buster.

5. Namek did blow up.

6. I don't remember Buu strugling to survive against his own attacks.

---------

And I also said in a previous comment:

@TruthTroller wrote:Besides, even if my examples were wrong, that wouldn't automatically discredit the reasonings which I tried to illustrate with those examples, so more than simply debating my examples, it would be better if you actually debated the whole reasonning that I tried to illustrate with thoses examples.
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Re: Imperialdramon Paladin Mode (Composite) vs Super Perfect Cell

Post by Beyonder on Sat Nov 28, 2015 1:07 pm

i read your comment special or not they are still inconstant regardless its no CIS/PIS at play.....
1. Goku was "Prepared" and still got killed.
2. Special techniques?.....a simple ki blast moon busted with piccolo and he needed his special beam for Goku+Raditz?.....
3. His "Ki" guard was up.....thats no excuse of "Stronger" a glass cannon character can tank more than vegeta but cant dish it out.
4. Ki blast>>>>>>Special beam canon
5. Like hours later....literally the fight wasnt even constant with the time frieza.
6. Buu like i said still barely survived either he knew he would be goo or he is just as insane....either way a planet attack turned him into goo.
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Re: Imperialdramon Paladin Mode (Composite) vs Super Perfect Cell

Post by TruthTroller on Sat Nov 28, 2015 10:14 pm

@Beyonder wrote:i read your comment special or not they are still inconstant regardless its no CIS/PIS at play.....
1. Goku was "Prepared" and still got killed.
2. Special techniques?.....a simple ki blast moon busted with piccolo and he needed his special beam for Goku+Raditz?.....
3. His "Ki" guard was up.....thats no excuse of "Stronger" a glass cannon character can tank more than vegeta but cant dish it out.
4. Ki blast>>>>>>Special beam canon
5. Like hours later....literally the fight wasnt even constant with the time frieza.
6. Buu like i said still barely survived either he knew he would be goo or he is just as insane....either way a planet attack turned him into goo.

1. The Piccolos technique was more powerful than Radiz durability, which was higher than Goku's durabilities limit as well.

Picccolo's beam potence >>>>> Goku's durabilities limits (regardless of if he was ready or not)

And he already knew he could die, so Goku already acknowledged the fact that the technique was more powerful than his durability.



So, yeah, sure, he was prepared, but prepared to die, nonetheless.

If the technique didn't had the capacity of killing Goku, how would it have the capacity of killing Raditz if Raditz had higher durability than Goku?
In beginning of DBZ
Power tiering: Raditz >>>> Goku

Raditz durability limit >>>> Goku's durability limit.

If Goku could had amped himself beyond Raditz at that moment, then he would had defeated Raditz alone, all by himself.

It seems to me that there are much more questionable incosistencies in your reasoning about dbz than on dbz itself   :/
------

2. Yes, he needed a special technique to overpower their durability. A ki blast wouldn't have killed raditz or Goku.

And he actually tried:



------

3. Again:

In android saga:
Android 18's attack power >>>>> Vegeta's durability maximun limit.

She could simply dish out more than he could resist (regardless of how much he amped his own durability). There is no brainner in that  :/

---------

4. Special beam cannon >>>>> Ki blast

If a ki blast was more powerful, then he wouldn't have used special beam cannon technique against Raditz, he would just shoot him regular ki blasts, which he did, but weren't effective enough to put him down  :/



--------

5. Five hours based on what?

I guess this bullets also took a extremely long time of flight :/



--------

6. "Barely survived?"

Considerig that there are many characters that can stay alive just fine without the need of keeping the physical structures of their bodies to do so, it is quite clear that you either have a missconception of what does "barely surviving" means for a character like Majin Buu, or you are simply applying wrong standards to him.

Under the same standards you applied to Majin Buu, I guess can as well say that Sandman "barely survived" this punch  :/



Maybe it would seem to you that Sandaman could have "died" from that punch and that he "barely survived", but I beg to differ with you, because it seems quite clear to me that Sandaman wasn't hurt at all, and same can be said about Majin Buu.

Your inference about how he "Barely survived" seems to me, more like a false impression of yours than a real thing :/

-----

Besides:
@TruthTroller wrote:Even if my examples were wrong, that wouldn't automatically discredit the reasonings which I tried to illustrate with those examples

:/
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Re: Imperialdramon Paladin Mode (Composite) vs Super Perfect Cell

Post by Beyonder on Sun Nov 29, 2015 2:35 am

Durability limits? We haven't been given any clear such explanations through out dragon ball z its been shown that Ki is the most inconstant thing about dragon ball since its for both attack energy/durability but yet Majin Buu was visibly affected by Bullets and Vegeta was getting beaten by a cyborg who doesn't have the full capabilities of Ki control.

even here we see Buu being visibly affected by an attack....

Here we can see Vegeta getting messed up even when he hardly broke a sweat with the other given androids

And here Majin Vegeta Blows up...

Not even planet level and Buu was still turned into Goo same for Super Buu

Here even trunks got Ko'ed by 18 throwing Vegeta at him and he wasn't even "Weakened"


Only a FEW amount of Dragon Ball Characters have stated to have the powers to a planet only ones we seen was
Frieza
Filler King Vegeta
Broly
Beerus
Kid Buu
Filler Vegeta
and that's it and while we have moon busters like Roshi/Piccolo but do they have their own inconsistencies? Yes.....yes they do....
Vegeta in Dragon Ball Z was at 300G

Vegeta in Dragon Ball Super was at what?.....150G? and he got tagged by lasers???

Then again here......
Here he cant lifted 10 tons in based form.....

But needed his transformation???
And in Super he is doing this?.....


May i also point out this?

A Super Sayian Vegeta causing damage to Beerus? even when a SSJ 3 Goku couldn't do the same??

Then later on Goku manage to start beating Beerus in SSJ Form?

If these aren't inconstant then i don't know what is.......
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Re: Imperialdramon Paladin Mode (Composite) vs Super Perfect Cell

Post by TruthTroller on Sun Nov 29, 2015 6:27 am

@Beyonder wrote:but yet Majin Buu was visibly affected by Bullets

Yeah, but he wasn't hurt, if anything is just shows that Majin Buu is a character with a maleable body, that he can reshape and reform himself, and that while the energy required to deform the shape of his body is much lower than that of any character, the energy required to hurt him or him is still much higher than that of any other villain previous to him.

@Beyonder wrote:and Vegeta was getting beaten by a cyborg who doesn't have the full capabilities of Ki control.

The android had her own energy, she was shown shooting energy blast, flying and basically she had the basic power set every other character have. So clearly she does have control of her energy.

@Beyonder wrote:
And here Majin Vegeta Blows up...
Not even planet level and Buu was still turned into Goo same for Super Buu

Characters have not only shown the capacity of ussing ki to fly, amp their strenght, durability, speed and shoot energy projections, they have also shown the capacity of manipulation several features of their energy projections before and after projecting them.

For example, Yamcha can control the speed and trajectory of an energy sphere in mid-air:



Goku can also bend the trajectory of his kameha:





Just the fact that they can give different kinds of shapes (spheres, beams, disks), sizes and energy density to Ki is demostration of energy control:



It's more, they can even "pre-program" ki attacks so that they can automatically chase somebody else, like Piccolo's chasing bullet or Frieza's death saucer:


They can even control multiple energy blast at the same time:




So, they can give different shapes to the ki projectiles (spheres, disk, beams), they can make them of different sizes, they can control the trajectory and speed of some of their ki projectiles, they can even program a ki projectile to automatically chase an opponent, they previously decide the energy density of the attack, the speed it will have, and they can even control multiple blast at the same time.

Considering how much control they have over their own energy projections, it shouldn't be a surprise that they could control the radious of the explotion, if anything it would just make their attacks much more dangerous to their opponents because they concentrate the energy in a much smaller area or space, it is creating a powerful explotion inside of a small room.

For example, King Kai told Goku to be careful with the Genki dama, because if he didn't he could end up destroying the planet:


Considering that ki can not only be controled after it is fired, but some specific features can be decided previously to the projection of energy and that characters can even program ki attacks to automatically follow characters, it wouldn't be incosistant the Vegeta had a way to previously program the radius of the explotion in order to avoid the destruction of the planet.

@Beyonder wrote:
Here even trunks got Ko'ed by 18 throwing Vegeta at him and he wasn't even "Weakened"

Android 18 was stronger than Vegeta and Trunks, if the androids weren't more powerful than Trunks, then he simply wouldn't have travelled to the past at first place.

If anything, this illustrates the difference in power there was between the androids and characters like Vegeta and Trunks.

@Beyonder wrote:
Only a FEW amount of Dragon Ball Characters have stated to have the powers to a planet only ones we seen was
Frieza
Filler King Vegeta
Broly
Beerus
Kid Buu
Filler Vegeta

Actually, Goku has been stated by cannon to be capable of planet busting, and that is consistant with him been more powerful than Frieza, who is a planet buster by feats:


Vegeta has also been stated by cannon to be capable of planet busting, and that is consistent with the fact that he became more powerful than Frieza, who we know is capable of Planet busting:


Cell has been state to be capable of planet busting, and that is consistent with the fact that he is more powerful than Frieza, who we know is capable of planet busting:



Overall, not many characters have blown planets, but many characters who are more powerful than Frieza have been stated by cannon to be capable of planet busting, and that is consistent.

@Beyonder wrote:
and that's it and while we have moon busters like Roshi/Piccolo but do they have their own inconsistencies? Yes.....yes they do....

Please explain further.

@Beyonder wrote:
Vegeta in Dragon Ball Z was at 300G
Vegeta in Dragon Ball Super was at what?.....150G? and he got tagged by lasers???

In the first video we see him doing push ups and other things and in the second video Vegeta, while the gravity was reduced gravity, he is dodging lassers, he is moving much more, etc...

The fact that gravity is lower doesn't mean that his newer trainnings aren't more intense.

@Beyonder wrote:
Then again here......
Here he cant lifted 10 tons in based form.....
And in Super he is doing this?.....

This just illustrates what I said, their powers increase through the series.

@Beyonder wrote:
May i also point out this?
A Super Sayian Vegeta causing damage to Beerus? even when a SSJ 3 Goku couldn't do the same??

Vegeta got enraged, because Beerus hitted Bulma, his anger and rage increased his power for short amount of time, similar to when adrenaline in real live boost our speed and strenght temporarely.

@Beyonder wrote:
Then later on Goku manage to start beating Beerus in SSJ Form?

That was after he absorbed the powers of super saiyan god transformation, while he lost ssjg transformation, Beerus clearly stated that somehow, Goku retainned the powers of the transformation.

@Beyonder wrote:
If these aren't inconstant then i don't know what is.......

Hopefully, I have explained some of this so called inconsistencies.

As we both know, DBZ might not be perfect, but as you also said, there isn't anything entirely perfect.

However, overall, DBZ does hold some consistency, like the fact that it was clearly stated that multiple characters stronger than Frieza could blow up the planet in multiple instances, and this is further consistent with the fact that everybody have the same basic powers (flight, energy projections, superspeed, superstrenght, superdurability), and the series tries to illustrate a power progression as the serie advances.

So maybe not to you, but in my opinion, it clearly have enough consistency to be powerscalled. (Isn't perfect, but is more than consistent enough)


Last edited by TruthTroller on Sun Nov 29, 2015 7:03 am; edited 3 times in total
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Re: Imperialdramon Paladin Mode (Composite) vs Super Perfect Cell

Post by Beyonder on Sun Nov 29, 2015 6:34 am

You honestly dont see the inconstancies?......
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Re: Imperialdramon Paladin Mode (Composite) vs Super Perfect Cell

Post by TruthTroller on Sun Nov 29, 2015 6:41 am

@Beyonder wrote:You honestly dont see the inconstancies?......

Well, not as many you:

Just to show an example:
---------
Example of one your said "inconsistencies":

You showed that Goku was trainning hard with 10 tons or something like that, and then he was trainning with much more weight at the beginning of DBS and you said it was inconsistent.
------
My answer was:

Goku is always trainning, so it is reasonable to infer that he might have gotten stronger by then. It isn't necessarily inconsistent.
----------

That was one example.

Some of the incosistencies you claim simply don't seem as incosnsitent to me, simply because many of them have completely reasonable and inferable explanations that can be consistently applied to the series.

I mean as for example, isn't my conclusion that Goku could have gotten stronger reasonable? Isn't it rational at all? Is it really so infeasible to you that he could have gotten stronger? scratch

Besides, isn't Goku and Vegeta getting stronger a trend as the series advances anyway?
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Re: Imperialdramon Paladin Mode (Composite) vs Super Perfect Cell

Post by Beyonder on Sun Nov 29, 2015 8:24 am

[quote=TruthTroller]Goku is always trainning, so it is reasonable to infer that he might have gotten stronger by then. It isn't necessarily inconsistent.[/quote]
Wasn't it 10 or 8 years after he defeated Buu? So how could he be training when he has been doing work?

Getting stronger isnt always the "Explanation" as Vegeta was at 150G having a hard time dodging lasers and before he was clearly at 300G before so either vegeta got weak or akira is being lazy.
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Re: Imperialdramon Paladin Mode (Composite) vs Super Perfect Cell

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