Re: Michael Demiurgos Omnipotence

by **Beyonder** on Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:29 pm

@Jabosha wrote:
@Beyonder wrote:
@Jabosha wrote:If Michael can shape, what does he need Lucifer for? There's only one answer to this question. Either he does or doesn't. Do you know which it is? I'm not familiar with DC universe cosmics.
The Presence (Creator/Omnipotent being of DC) basically made them a unison basically 2 sides of 1 coin but here's the twist.....
Michael can create/destroy things.
Lucifer is the one who can't create from nothing.

the difference is people think "Oh michael can't create." but in actuality Lucifer just gives shape to the things he created like the DC Multiverse (Or Vertigo).

Michael can't create isn't their argument. Can Michael shape as Lucifer can? That's their argument. They're saying if Michael can't shape then he's not omnipotent. Now there's a difference between, doesn't and can't shape. Do you know which it is? I'm asking, as I don't know the DC story line.

On another note DC has actually done their homework on Michael. People think Lucifer was the most powerful before corruption. Michael was the angel who kicked Lucifer's ass out of heaven in the bible. Very clever of DC's writers to have given the greater role to Michael in the two sided coin. The funny thing about comics/entertainment take on Christianity, the absence of the Son of God, don't you think? Does DC at least delve into the Son of God?

I notice i used create lol instead of shape.

It seems doesn't is the right word.

Son of God? You mean Jesus Christ? they do but he is minor stories or used in name.

by **Jabosha** on Fri Mar 17, 2017 11:24 am

@Beyonder wrote:
@Jabosha wrote:
@Beyonder wrote:
@Jabosha wrote:If Michael can shape, what does he need Lucifer for? There's only one answer to this question. Either he does or doesn't. Do you know which it is? I'm not familiar with DC universe cosmics.
The Presence (Creator/Omnipotent being of DC) basically made them a unison basically 2 sides of 1 coin but here's the twist.....
Michael can create/destroy things.
Lucifer is the one who can't create from nothing.

the difference is people think "Oh michael can't create." but in actuality Lucifer just gives shape to the things he created like the DC Multiverse (Or Vertigo).

Michael can't create isn't their argument. Can Michael shape as Lucifer can? That's their argument. They're saying if Michael can't shape then he's not omnipotent. Now there's a difference between, doesn't and can't shape. Do you know which it is? I'm asking, as I don't know the DC story line.

On another note DC has actually done their homework on Michael. People think Lucifer was the most powerful before corruption. Michael was the angel who kicked Lucifer's ass out of heaven in the bible. Very clever of DC's writers to have given the greater role to Michael in the two sided coin. The funny thing about comics/entertainment take on Christianity, the absence of the Son of God, don't you think? Does DC at least delve into the Son of God?
I notice i used create lol instead of shape.

It seems doesn't is the right word.

Son of God? You mean Jesus Christ? they do but he is minor stories or used in name.

If it's doesn't, I can't see how one thinks Michael isn't omnipotent.

Cosmic beings are not and cannot be fleeting, like people.

If they have a purpose or a set of rules by which an Omni/multi/uni-verse should be for positive health of the verse, they'd stick to it. If the Presence gave Michael all power and directed Michael to let Lucifer shape, that's exactly what Michael would do.

by **Beyonder** on Fri Mar 17, 2017 12:56 pm

@Jabosha wrote:
@Beyonder wrote:
@Jabosha wrote:
@Beyonder wrote:
@Jabosha wrote:If Michael can shape, what does he need Lucifer for? There's only one answer to this question. Either he does or doesn't. Do you know which it is? I'm not familiar with DC universe cosmics.
The Presence (Creator/Omnipotent being of DC) basically made them a unison basically 2 sides of 1 coin but here's the twist.....
Michael can create/destroy things.
Lucifer is the one who can't create from nothing.

the difference is people think "Oh michael can't create." but in actuality Lucifer just gives shape to the things he created like the DC Multiverse (Or Vertigo).

Michael can't create isn't their argument. Can Michael shape as Lucifer can? That's their argument. They're saying if Michael can't shape then he's not omnipotent. Now there's a difference between, doesn't and can't shape. Do you know which it is? I'm asking, as I don't know the DC story line.

On another note DC has actually done their homework on Michael. People think Lucifer was the most powerful before corruption. Michael was the angel who kicked Lucifer's ass out of heaven in the bible. Very clever of DC's writers to have given the greater role to Michael in the two sided coin. The funny thing about comics/entertainment take on Christianity, the absence of the Son of God, don't you think? Does DC at least delve into the Son of God?
I notice i used create lol instead of shape.

It seems doesn't is the right word.

Son of God? You mean Jesus Christ? they do but he is minor stories or used in name.

If it's doesn't, I can't see how one thinks Michael isn't omnipotent.

Cosmic beings are not and cannot be fleeting, like people.

If they have a purpose or a set of rules by which an Omni/multi/uni-verse should be for positive health of the verse, they'd stick to it. If the Presence gave Michael all power and directed Michael to let Lucifer shape, that's exactly what Michael would do.

Agreed hell michael is basically the one being who renews all creation every single instant from dying he could have ended the war in heaven with a mere "gesture" but he didn't idk if its a mental thing for him because he isn't absolutely omniscient that's Lucifer who is and Michael could have ended the omniverse anytime he wanted but he chose not to use his power.

by **Jabosha** on Sat Mar 18, 2017 7:49 pm

@Beyonder wrote:
@Jabosha wrote:
@Beyonder wrote:
@Jabosha wrote:
@Beyonder wrote:
@Jabosha wrote:If Michael can shape, what does he need Lucifer for? There's only one answer to this question. Either he does or doesn't. Do you know which it is? I'm not familiar with DC universe cosmics.
The Presence (Creator/Omnipotent being of DC) basically made them a unison basically 2 sides of 1 coin but here's the twist.....
Michael can create/destroy things.
Lucifer is the one who can't create from nothing.

the difference is people think "Oh michael can't create." but in actuality Lucifer just gives shape to the things he created like the DC Multiverse (Or Vertigo).

Michael can't create isn't their argument. Can Michael shape as Lucifer can? That's their argument. They're saying if Michael can't shape then he's not omnipotent. Now there's a difference between, doesn't and can't shape. Do you know which it is? I'm asking, as I don't know the DC story line.

On another note DC has actually done their homework on Michael. People think Lucifer was the most powerful before corruption. Michael was the angel who kicked Lucifer's ass out of heaven in the bible. Very clever of DC's writers to have given the greater role to Michael in the two sided coin. The funny thing about comics/entertainment take on Christianity, the absence of the Son of God, don't you think? Does DC at least delve into the Son of God?
I notice i used create lol instead of shape.

It seems doesn't is the right word.

Son of God? You mean Jesus Christ? they do but he is minor stories or used in name.

If it's doesn't, I can't see how one thinks Michael isn't omnipotent.

Cosmic beings are not and cannot be fleeting, like people.

If they have a purpose or a set of rules by which an Omni/multi/uni-verse should be for positive health of the verse, they'd stick to it. If the Presence gave Michael all power and directed Michael to let Lucifer shape, that's exactly what Michael would do.

Agreed hell michael is basically the one being who renews all creation every single instant from dying he could have ended the war in heaven with a mere "gesture" but he didn't idk if its a mental thing for him because he isn't absolutely omniscient that's Lucifer who is and Michael could have ended the omniverse anytime he wanted but he chose not to use his power.

I would say Michael is omniscient, he just sticks to his purpose.

by **Jabosha** on Sat Mar 18, 2017 8:55 pm

Btw, if anyone agrees or disagrees, feel free to jump in and join the debate. Smile

by **Beyonder** on Tue Mar 21, 2017 5:25 pm

Well it was explained Michael is "Near" but isn't fully where Lucifer is the opposite he could be nigh/fully when he want's to be which is both cool and outright scary for such a character.

by **Jabosha** on Thu Mar 23, 2017 5:47 am

Beyonder, you know my stance. If Michael is nigh scient, then he can't be omnipotent on a cosmic level. These two, scient/presence have to be present for potence. I think the Beyonder has all of them and the writers separated understanding from scient or knowing. Then proceeded to write a pis story with the original secret wars.

by **Beyonder** on Fri Mar 24, 2017 3:58 pm

@Jabosha wrote:Beyonder, you know my stance. If Michael is nigh scient, then he can't be omnipotent on a cosmic level. These two, scient/presence have to be present for potence. I think the Beyonder has all of them and the writers separated understanding from scient or knowing. Then proceeded to write a pis story with the original secret wars.

Well omnipotence doesn't really mean "Omniscience" in a sense because Omnipotential does exist which means "Infinite Power without Omniscience." the user can be nigh-omniscient just not fully and can also be Fully or Near-Omnipresent.

it's hard to explain lol.

by **Jabosha** on Fri Mar 24, 2017 4:16 pm

Nope. Not on the level which determines who is ruler of any verse. You've gotta have the two to be all powerful. If you don't know everything and aren't everywhere, you can't be omnipotent. On cosmic scales, it doesn't make any sense, a being can know some things and be most places and be omnipotent. Part of omnipotence is scient/present. Anything else is fleeting perspective from humans. You are everything or you are not. The beyonder in his verse was, so he fits. Michael doesn't.

by **Beyonder** on Fri Mar 24, 2017 4:39 pm

@Jabosha wrote:Nope. Not on the level which determines who is ruler of any verse. You've gotta have the two to be all powerful. If you don't know everything and aren't everywhere, you can't be omnipotent. On cosmic scales, it doesn't make any sense, a being can know some things and be most places and be omnipotent. Part of omnipotence is scient/present. Anything else is fleeting perspective from humans. You are everything or you are not. The beyonder in his verse was, so he fits. Michael doesn't.

Michael just wields infinite power and exist everywhere but he isn't omniscient thats the only thing because that role fits and goes to his twin brother Lucifer who is Near-omnipotent,near-omnipresent, and can be fully Omniscient/Nigh-omniscient if he chooses to be.

Beyonder is a far different subject and a character above michael in terms of experience and knowledge.

by **Jabosha** on Fri Mar 24, 2017 4:39 pm

The problem is human tendency to focus on just the power aspect. We tend to believe power is attainable without knowledge, not true. One might give the example of getting in the zone. As human we know it's possible with no explanation. God or the Beyonder would know why and how it's possible. This is just an example. The scient part gives this knowledge which includes understanding. They're separate to humans but not to an omnipotent being, in true sense of the word. The present part fits in and I'm not sure I can explain it. Without both, humans in the zone can't even be created,if you get what I'm saying.

by **Jabosha** on Fri Mar 24, 2017 4:44 pm

The best way to describe Mike/Luc is, They, are omnipotent, not Mike himself. What you don't understand is a truly omnipotent being is experience and knowledge, amongst many other words we use for them. They don't have to see shit to understand, they do.

by **Beyonder** on Fri Mar 24, 2017 4:48 pm

Our mind is limited but the best thing is God did create Michael with direct access to an aspect of "Omnipotence" in which both Lucy/Mike has to be in unison to functionally do anything with creating.

Michael is the source of creation.
Lucifer is the shaper of creation.

Michael is the power.
Lucifer is the Knowledge.

is how i see it.

by **Jabosha** on Fri Mar 24, 2017 4:51 pm

@Beyonder wrote:Our mind is limited but the best thing is God did create Michael with direct access to an aspect of "Omnipotence" in which both Lucy/Mike has to be in unison to functionally do anything with creating.

Michael is the source of creation.
Lucifer is the shaper of creation.

Michael is the power.
Lucifer is the Knowledge.

is how i see it.

Basically we're saying the same thing about Mike/Luc. That's why I said, THEY are omnipotent.

by **Beyonder** on Fri Mar 24, 2017 4:53 pm

@Jabosha wrote:
@Beyonder wrote:Our mind is limited but the best thing is God did create Michael with direct access to an aspect of "Omnipotence" in which both Lucy/Mike has to be in unison to functionally do anything with creating.

Michael is the source of creation.
Lucifer is the shaper of creation.

Michael is the power.
Lucifer is the Knowledge.

is how i see it.

Basically we're saying the same thing about Mike/Luc. That's why I said, THEY are omnipotent.

So both? not michael?

by **Jabosha** on Fri Mar 24, 2017 4:55 pm

@Beyonder wrote:
@Jabosha wrote:
@Beyonder wrote:Our mind is limited but the best thing is God did create Michael with direct access to an aspect of "Omnipotence" in which both Lucy/Mike has to be in unison to functionally do anything with creating.

Michael is the source of creation.
Lucifer is the shaper of creation.

Michael is the power.
Lucifer is the Knowledge.

is how i see it.

Basically we're saying the same thing about Mike/Luc. That's why I said, THEY are omnipotent.
So both? not michael?

Both in tandem present all qualities to be omnipotent. Not separately.

by **Jabosha** on Fri Mar 24, 2017 5:01 pm

Cool, this is the first time we've been on together talking. lol
Also, since cosmic entities are not fleeting like humans and STICK to the plan/purpose, omnipotence can work in tandem.

by **Beyonder** on Fri Mar 24, 2017 5:24 pm

@Jabosha wrote:Cool, this is the first time we've been on together talking. lol
Also, since cosmic entities are not fleeting like humans and STICK to the plan/purpose, omnipotence can work in tandem.

You should check out the other thread lol.

by **Jabosha** on Sat Mar 25, 2017 2:25 am

@Beyonder wrote:
@Jabosha wrote:Cool, this is the first time we've been on together talking. lol
Also, since cosmic entities are not fleeting like humans and STICK to the plan/purpose, omnipotence can work in tandem.
You should check out the other thread lol.

To furthur things. Tandem was a bad way to say it. As a pair would have been better, not two horses. I'm also saying, it's possible the Celestials as a race could be omnipotent if they can fullfill the requirements, which they don't.

Which thread, the firmament one?

by **Beyonder** on Sat Mar 25, 2017 3:36 pm

@Jabosha wrote:
@Beyonder wrote:
@Jabosha wrote:Cool, this is the first time we've been on together talking. lol
Also, since cosmic entities are not fleeting like humans and STICK to the plan/purpose, omnipotence can work in tandem.
You should check out the other thread lol.

To furthur things. Tandem was a bad way to say it. As a pair would have been better, not two horses. I'm also saying, it's possible the Celestials as a race could be omnipotent if they can fullfill the requirements, which they don't.

Which thread, the firmament one?

Celestials have been killed way before tho.

the whole first firmament one.

by **Jabosha** on Sun Mar 26, 2017 7:31 am

@Beyonder wrote:
@Jabosha wrote:
@Beyonder wrote:
@Jabosha wrote:Cool, this is the first time we've been on together talking. lol
Also, since cosmic entities are not fleeting like humans and STICK to the plan/purpose, omnipotence can work in tandem.
You should check out the other thread lol.

To furthur things. Tandem was a bad way to say it. As a pair would have been better, not two horses. I'm also saying, it's possible the Celestials as a race could be omnipotent if they can fullfill the requirements, which they don't.

Which thread, the firmament one?
Celestials have been killed way before tho.

the whole first firmament one.

I fail to see what your response on the celestials has to do with the point I made. I've already stated they don't fit the requirement for omnipotence.

I'm saying, it's possible for a race of beings to be omnipotent through numbers as Mike/Luc are in DC, as long as each entity sticks to their role.

Of course the celestials don't fit. They can't even foretell the results on many of their own planetary experiments throughout the Marvel omniverse or whatever anyone wants to call it. Which means, they fail the scient part of the omnipotence test spectacularly. Nevermind the point of being killed, which you brought up.

by **Beyonder** on Sun Mar 26, 2017 7:01 pm

@Jabosha wrote:
@Beyonder wrote:
@Jabosha wrote:
@Beyonder wrote:
@Jabosha wrote:Cool, this is the first time we've been on together talking. lol
Also, since cosmic entities are not fleeting like humans and STICK to the plan/purpose, omnipotence can work in tandem.
You should check out the other thread lol.

To furthur things. Tandem was a bad way to say it. As a pair would have been better, not two horses. I'm also saying, it's possible the Celestials as a race could be omnipotent if they can fullfill the requirements, which they don't.

Which thread, the firmament one?
Celestials have been killed way before tho.

the whole first firmament one.

I fail to see what your response on the celestials has to do with the point I made. I've already stated they don't fit the requirement for omnipotence.

I'm saying, it's possible for a race of beings to be omnipotent through numbers as Mike/Luc are in DC, as long as each entity sticks to their role.

Of course the celestials don't fit. They can't even foretell the results on many of their own planetary experiments throughout the Marvel omniverse or whatever anyone wants to call it. Which means, they fail the scient part of the omnipotence test spectacularly. Nevermind the point of being killed, which you brought up.

The beyonders were stated to be Omnipotent but not Omniscient as well.

First Firmament

by **Jabosha** on Sun Mar 26, 2017 10:50 pm

@Beyonder wrote:
@Jabosha wrote:
@Beyonder wrote:
@Jabosha wrote:
@Beyonder wrote:
@Jabosha wrote:Cool, this is the first time we've been on together talking. lol
Also, since cosmic entities are not fleeting like humans and STICK to the plan/purpose, omnipotence can work in tandem.
You should check out the other thread lol.

To furthur things. Tandem was a bad way to say it. As a pair would have been better, not two horses. I'm also saying, it's possible the Celestials as a race could be omnipotent if they can fullfill the requirements, which they don't.

Which thread, the firmament one?
Celestials have been killed way before tho.

the whole first firmament one.

I fail to see what your response on the celestials has to do with the point I made. I've already stated they don't fit the requirement for omnipotence.

I'm saying, it's possible for a race of beings to be omnipotent through numbers as Mike/Luc are in DC, as long as each entity sticks to their role.

Of course the celestials don't fit. They can't even foretell the results on many of their own planetary experiments throughout the Marvel omniverse or whatever anyone wants to call it. Which means, they fail the scient part of the omnipotence test spectacularly. Nevermind the point of being killed, which you brought up.

The beyonders were stated to be Omnipotent but not Omniscient as well.

First Firmament

Then the Beyonders aren't omnipotent in my opinion.

by **Beyonder** on Sun Mar 26, 2017 11:17 pm

@Jabosha wrote:
@Beyonder wrote:
@Jabosha wrote:
@Beyonder wrote:
@Jabosha wrote:
@Beyonder wrote:
@Jabosha wrote:Cool, this is the first time we've been on together talking. lol
Also, since cosmic entities are not fleeting like humans and STICK to the plan/purpose, omnipotence can work in tandem.
You should check out the other thread lol.

To furthur things. Tandem was a bad way to say it. As a pair would have been better, not two horses. I'm also saying, it's possible the Celestials as a race could be omnipotent if they can fullfill the requirements, which they don't.

Which thread, the firmament one?
Celestials have been killed way before tho.

the whole first firmament one.

I fail to see what your response on the celestials has to do with the point I made. I've already stated they don't fit the requirement for omnipotence.

I'm saying, it's possible for a race of beings to be omnipotent through numbers as Mike/Luc are in DC, as long as each entity sticks to their role.

Of course the celestials don't fit. They can't even foretell the results on many of their own planetary experiments throughout the Marvel omniverse or whatever anyone wants to call it. Which means, they fail the scient part of the omnipotence test spectacularly. Nevermind the point of being killed, which you brought up.

The beyonders were stated to be Omnipotent but not Omniscient as well.

First Firmament

Then the Beyonders aren't omnipotent in my opinion.

How so? They helped create the Marvelverse and watched it from the beginning they might not be fully but they are near-all knowing.

by **Jabosha** on Mon Mar 27, 2017 10:30 pm

@Beyonder wrote:
@Jabosha wrote:
@Beyonder wrote:
@Jabosha wrote:
@Beyonder wrote:
@Jabosha wrote:
@Beyonder wrote:
@Jabosha wrote:Cool, this is the first time we've been on together talking. lol
Also, since cosmic entities are not fleeting like humans and STICK to the plan/purpose, omnipotence can work in tandem.
You should check out the other thread lol.

To furthur things. Tandem was a bad way to say it. As a pair would have been better, not two horses. I'm also saying, it's possible the Celestials as a race could be omnipotent if they can fullfill the requirements, which they don't.

Which thread, the firmament one?
Celestials have been killed way before tho.

the whole first firmament one.

I fail to see what your response on the celestials has to do with the point I made. I've already stated they don't fit the requirement for omnipotence.

I'm saying, it's possible for a race of beings to be omnipotent through numbers as Mike/Luc are in DC, as long as each entity sticks to their role.

Of course the celestials don't fit. They can't even foretell the results on many of their own planetary experiments throughout the Marvel omniverse or whatever anyone wants to call it. Which means, they fail the scient part of the omnipotence test spectacularly. Nevermind the point of being killed, which you brought up.

The beyonders were stated to be Omnipotent but not Omniscient as well.

First Firmament

Then the Beyonders aren't omnipotent in my opinion.
How so? They helped create the Marvelverse and watched it from the beginning they might not be fully but they are near-all knowing.

I've told you already. If you're not all knowing, all present, you can't be omnipotent. Nigh scient means there's holes or gaps in your knowledge of the creation. Which means, at some point, certain abilities will be locked to you based on limited knowledge. It's simple logic.

Your're putting human qualities or deficiency on a being that's truly omnipotent. Logically this can't work. Near all knowing is not enough, near scient isn't either. Without both, you can be tricked/lied to/stolen from/etc.....doesn't sound omnipotent, does it?

You're letting your love for the Beyonders get the better of you, imo.